Another upgrade Question

[Scollops71]

Hi - had my Nikon D300 for hmmm lots of years, my first camera actually.  have half a dozen prime lenses, and a 24-120 - all Nikon, some DX cheapy but outstanding lenses....

Its time to make the upgrade to full frame - but want to ensure I make the right choice (given costs) as I will have for a while again - after all its the person behind the camera, so I will have plenty of learning to go.

Happy to stay with Nikon - aware of new cameras out - D5, D500 etc - D5 is way out of my league, I am far from a pro - the D500 looks interesting as did the D750 which had rave reviews.  I havent really researched in detail, due to new cameras coming.  you can see this in the discounts around lately.

Ok, the curve ball - I have access to a Sony a7rii also, 14mm, 35, 55, 90 and 135mm lenses - great camera too - LOVE how light this thing is.  Have nightmares of lugging my D300 and lenses around Paris....great photos, bad shoulders - New bag sorted that.  But no really issues with it, I seem slower to manage it compared to the DSLR Nikon - could be me....probably is.

I personally miss the Nikon feel, ease etc - really need some guidance on to wait, to research, invest or go left field maybe - but need convincing.  Like my camera bags, how many have you got to buy before your happy....answer, never as I keep changing what I want, what lenses to carry, - hiking, travelling etc.

 

Anyway sorry rambling - upgrade time, I cant trade it given its only worth $300 in mint condition now it seems - depressing.  Would be handy if there are any known stores that do interest free perhaps rather than stumping the full hit)

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

[Brian]

I'm not sure of the question? LOL!!

Believe it or not, I am exactly in the same boat. I have a D300s and will be making the jump to FX soon. In fact, I just bought a Nikon 24-70 f/2.8 in preparation for this.

OK, here are your choices: Used Nikon D700, Used Nikon D3s, New D750 and New D810.
 

Used Nikon D700: This is the cheapest route right now. They are running around the $879 mark for EX+ condition. The bonus is you can use the batteries and CF cards that you have now. As far as a Battery Grip, with the D700 you only want to use the Nikon MB-D10. The 3rd party grips have a habit of zapping the D700's electronics. Yes, I'm sure there are people out there who have 3rd party grips and don't have any problems. But when I had Ask Brian on Facebook, I had 4-5 members who had their D700 cameras turn into paperweights due to 3rd party grips. I have a friend in real life who's D700 started acting weird with her Targus Grip. So I can't in good conscious recommend them. Stick with Nikon in this case. The reason I'm going on about this is we haven't discussed what you have in terms of gear now, or if you do have a battery grip.

Downfall to the D700: It's tech from 2009. So you if you are looking for those insane high ISO numbers, you are going to have to go to the D3s or get a brand new body. That said, I'm a old film guy, and ISO 6400 seems magical to me.

Used D3s: Great camera. Professional Body. All the Bells & Whistles turned on. (You'd be surprised on how many features Nikon leaves out of the consumer bodies.) It's heavier and bigger than your D300, but you get used to it. Viewfinder is different too, the light meter is along the right side and not on the bottom. External controls are very similar to a D300. It has a built in grip and dual card slots. It's fast too, about 9fps. Cost is between $2000 - $2500.

New D750: This camera reminds me of a happy puppy. "I'm-a-D750!! Let's go shooting!! C'monC'monC'mon." Images from this camera are great. But it seems that it has chronic problems and there are multiple recalls out. So you might be sending your brand new Nikon D750 back to Nikon if it's one of the models that are affected. Now since you are used to shooting with a D300, which is "Pro Level DX," the D750 will feel like a step backwards. (At least to me.) It's like shooting a D90 or D80 instead of a D300. It just feels like going backwards and the body doesn't feel rugged. D300 users can just "Tell." It's hard to explain. The D750 is equivalent to the D5xxx Class. It's like a FX D5200.

New D810: I really like this camera. But the D810 is like a Bomber instead of a Fighter Jet. So it will feel "Slow" compared to your D300. But the images produced from this thing...OMG! The detail and dynamic range. I've played around with one, and it's like...

"I'm Tex. Glad to meet you. Now we are going to mosey over there and take great photos...but in a little bit. I have to finish this thing first..."

Compared to the D750 where it's like a hyper puppy yanking on the leash. "Let's go shooting!! C'monC'monC'mon....yank-yank-yank....

So the D810 reminds me of a old film camera. It really makes you slow down. At 5fps, you really can't go into "Machine Gun Mode." So if you do shoot sports, you are going to use Group Area AF with 3D tracking to compensate. Also, with the 36MP and the 75MB Raw files, you will need the infrastructure (Large EHDs, i.e. 4TB or larger) and a computer that can keep up. So the biggest downside to the D810 is all the stuff you'll need besides the camera. All the computer stuff. 32GB or 64GB CF cards. 4TB EHDs, 16GB of RAM but really you want 32GB. So you are spending money on a possible new computer AND  the D810. In addition, the D810 isn't cheap. If you want the Grip and D4s battery to get the crop mode up to 7fps, It's gonna run you about $3800.

In reality, I wish Nikon would come out with a D810h...put the D750's sensor in the D810 body and give us 7fps natively. Those suckers would sell like hotcakes. But that will never happen. Nikon keeps splitting the bodies up to give you just "enough" but wanting more. Like the D810...you want a faster camera? Then you have to buy a D4s or D5. The D750....want a better AF function, want the focus points to be spread out more? Then you have to buy a D810, etc. etc.

One camera that you will not see me recommending is the D600 or D610. They are "Entry Level FX" bodies. Think Nikon D3xxx class. I'm not going to be spending over $1000 on an entry level anything. The D610 is meant to be outgrown, just like a D3300. Honestly, it's better to spend a little more and get the D750 and skip the D610.

[Brian]

Now, what am I going to do?

Since I have a limited budget after purchasing the 24-70, more than likely I will go with a used D700 for about $879. I will add the D3s battery to my MB-D10 grip, and that will get the thing up to 8fps instead of 5fps. I shoot Weddings and Sports, so I need a camera that's fast. I'm also really tough on my gear, so I think I would eat a D750 alive. Plus, I can use all the cards and accessories that I have now, since the D300s is pretty much the same. My final cost with the extra battery is around $1299. About $1000 less than the camera that I'd really like to have, the D3s. I'm hoping to make some money with the D700 then get a used D4s next year.

Oh, one more important thing: You really do not want to use DX lenses on a FX body. Sure they will work, but they will Cripple that FX body. For example, if you put a DX lens on a D700, it goes from 12MP to 5MP and the image in the viewfinder? It will be darkened around the sides, which makes things tough to frame. 

[Brian]

Note: If anyone is reading this thread and thinking I'm being too hard on the D810, I'm not. I really would love to own one. It's a fine camera. 

[Scollops71]

Hmm sounds like everything I am thinking about in my head - you can easily get lost in the bells and whistles.....I agree about the Nikon feel, really like the yappy 750 analogy lol.  Off my menu already....810 could be good, as you say slower....i guess thats the Nikon Marketing for you.

Well i already invested in disk and storage so ok there....

 

[Scollops71]

Only issues which you raised, was moving from a quick Fighter Jet...D300 to a bomber 810 potentially or something else.  I find this with the Sony a7rii,  mind you have not taken any fast action sports etc so could be a safe bet.

 

Sounds like my D300 lens collection needs to be sold complete then....having had the FF sony I like it a lot....right time to review again.

[Brian]

Well, it's because you are crunching data from 36.1 Million Pixels. Which really puts it at the limit of what the EXPEED4 Processor can handle. If you want 9-11fps, you need to have less pixels. This is why the D4/D4s/D5 are below 20MP. 

That's why I say the D810 is like a Bomber. It goes in, does its job really well, than leaves. It's not like a Fighter Jet, which does a lot of things quickly, but it's not a true air to surface bomber. KWIM?

Most of the things that I noticed with the D700 coming from a D300s, is that the D700 is a tad bit "slower." It's more like a D810 than I realized. 

The problem today is people are looking for a "Forever Camera." They want to get back to the days of inheriting Grandpa's F2 and a bunch of prime lenses, which gets a person through college and some time beyond. They want a body that is going to last 10+ years. Or longer. 

The problem is today's cameras are computers that think they are cameras. Bodies only last 4-5 years on average, then they start getting quirky. Take my D300s, the rubber that wraps around the body, the glue is breaking down and it needs to be re-glued and re-wrapped. Sometimes it locks up on me and I have to pull the battery out for a few seconds. Weird thing like that. 

Which puts me in the market sooner than later. 

[Brian]

The D500 looks interesting. The controls and setup are very much like a D5. It really is the true D300/D300s replacement. So before we go further, what does your lens setup look like? 

If you do get a D810, you really NEED to use the best lenses with it. Those 36MP need to be fed, unfortunately, those lenses usually end up being the $2000 lenses. 

[Scollops71]

Had a another check of the lenses - 50m 1.8G, 85mm 1.8G, 20mm 2.8D, 24-120mm 3.5 -5.6 D, 70-300mm 1.4-5.6 ED

 

If anything the G lenses could go to the next camera...,  had a quick 810 comparison to the sony, interesting read - its all mind tricks made me think I was going backwards....arrhh must not google any more

 

 

[Brian]

Ugh. The only one on that list that will work well on the D810 is the AF-S 85mm f/1.8G. The 50mm f/1.8G isn't "bad" either.

20mm f/2.8D...not sure how well it will perform. Not looking that good.

The 24-120...is that the VR version? Or the older "D" version?

The 70-300...if it's not the VR version, don't bother. In fact, the Non-VR 70-300 lens is one of Nikon's worst performers. The camera stores can't give them away. For example, the 70-300 f/4-5.6 Non-VR is $169.95 @ B&H. That's a new lens. The VR version is MUCH BETTER and that is $496.95. 

If anyone is reading this and saying, "Oooh!! A 70-300 lens for $170!!! I'm gonna get one!" DON'T. If you want to waste $170, send it my way...I take donations and will put it to good use.

Again, do not buy a Non-VR Nikon 70-300. Period.

Anyhoo...

In reality, I'm not liking your lens setup. The reason has to do with the DX sensor. Since it's physically smaller, it's only using the center-most portion of the lens. So you don't see any flaws with them. You are using the "Sweet Spot" of the lens, where it's supposed to perform its best optically. You will be surprised on just how soft the 24-120 is in the corners, or how bad the Non-VR 70-300 truly is. If you go with a D810, you will be upgrading lenses, for that I'm certain.

I know Nikon Marketing has been pushing FX for the last few years, since that's all they had new, technology-wise. They have pushed FX as "Pro" or "Better" and DX as "Consumer" or "Amateur." Now the marketing machine is reversing course, and has released a Pro-Level DX body again, the D500. Keep in mind, the average cost to switch to FX will run you around $4000-$4500, conversationally speaking. That's why I've been acquiring lenses over the last 5 years and I've spent plenty on this sh*t. $2500 here, $1700 there...$500 here, etc. It all adds up. 

Since the D800E and D810 are very similar IQ-wise, here is the list of recommended lenses for use with the D800E / D810. For a comparison, here is a list from Thom Hogan: Thom's recommended lenses. As you can see, both lists are very similar. Thom really likes the D810 and highly recommends it. But as I've said before, you really need to have your lenses and computer / hard drives / accessories lined up in order to support the D810.

So now we are right back to where we started. Which body? As of right now, unless you drop some serious coin on new lenses, the D500 is looking to be your best bet. I think it will be released around the $1999 price-point.

 

[Brian]

For a comparison, my FX lens line up is:

Nikon 24-70 f/2.8G

Nikon 70-200 f/2.8G VR II

Nikon 85mm f/1.8G

Nikon 60mm f/2.8D Macro

Nikon 50mm f/1.8D

I really don't use the 60mm Macro that much. In fact, I'm tempted to sell it. The 50mm f/1.8D...I got that lens years ago, when it was $110 new. I really don't use that lens that much and actually use my 35mm f/1.8G DX lens A LOT MORE. I HEART that little Nikon 35mm f/1.8G DX lens. If you shoot DX and don't have that lens, I'm questioning your sanity. It's that good. Only downside is it's a DX body lens only. So if i were to upgrade my 50mm f/1.8D, I would purchase the 58mm f/1.4G, and that lens is on sale for $1496.95. (Whatever you do, SKIP the Nikon 50mm f/1.4G. I hate that lens. That stupid lens caused so many threads in the old Ask Brian. It tends to either miss focus, or will back-focus, especially on a D700. On a D810...bwahahahaha!! Don't even bother. Nikon themselves doesn't recommend that lens for use on a D800/800E or D810 body.)

See a theme here? I've rounded off the prices for my FX kit, and I've spent $5200+ so far, and don't have the FX body yet!! Switching to FX is expensive. I'm not trying to humble-brag, but this stuff costs money. So choose wisely.

[Scollops71]

Cheers Brian - narrows down a bit, annoying on the camera and lenses, but thats the area we play in.. Everything aside 810 or 500 overall ?

Shame these will sit in a box now gathering dust, where once a professional level camera....pfft

 

[Brian]

If you have the cash, and feel like upgrading lenses, then a D810 is in your future. Plan on a budget of $6000 or so. Maybe more.

To use your current lenses, and slowly upgrade them, then the D500 is your best bet. Or possibly a D750. That body is still on the table.

My advice: Pickup a D750 and play around with it, before committing. The D500 is the D300/D300s replacement, so that falls in line with what you currently have.

[Brian]

You are really between a rock-and-a-hard place. I know you want the benefits with FX, but your lenses are holding you back, in my humble opinion. It's because of the stupid resolution of today's sensors. We start at 24MP, and that's for consumer models! So you really need to get glass first, before body. That hasn't changed.

The first lens I would replace is the 70-300. Get either the 70-200 f/2.8 VR II or it's little brother, the 70-200 f/4. Both are great lenses. I have a love-affair with my 70-200 f/2.8. Her name is Bertha and she gets sh*t done.

[Scollops71]

Arrh cant do it....The 810 is great but slow and the raw file sizes are getting out there, the 500 is not full frame - the 750 is a snappy cam.. Do I wait a bit longer or invest in Canon since I have to start again anyway.....A future Canon 5D Mark III replacement perhaps ......I think I may go a try them, but the canon option is on the table I guess given the lenses I have.  Its just committing to Canon or Nikon.

 

[Brian]

"Meh." Changing sides is costly. I would pick up a Canon and really tinker / play with it. I personally can not stand Canon's Menu system. Instead of things spelled out, you have little symbols. That said, there are lots of happy Canon owners. Realistically, the D500 is a good choice for you right now. You really need to purchase better lenses if you want to switch over to full frame. If you were going to do anything, you really are looking at a 5D Mark III.

Why?

Because you are used to a focusing system that works. Imagine only having ONE RELIABLE AF POINT. Canon likes to cut corners and make the center AF point the only cross-type. It is unacceptable for Canon to do this...people pay good money to have crappy focus systems. As a Nikon user, you are spoiled with picking a AF point, and have it actually focus correctly. Even on the low-end models. With Canon, you are spending $2500 on a camera body plus a lens to have this feature. So let's say you get a 5D Mark III and a 24-105 f/4 L, that's $3099....call it $3100. If you went with a D500, that's only $1999.

The bottom line is this, you are going to be spending close to $4000 when it's all said and done to replace your kit. I would get a D500, and replace that 70-300 lens and 24-120 with something better. FX is your long term goal. It's taken me 5+ years to acquire the lenses to switch to FX. Now that I have the lenses, I can't afford the FX body that I want, the D3s. LOL!! Maybe next year.

I feel your pain...

[Scollops71]

True true. ..Nikon for me, just the long haul in getting lenses.  Trade up deals neded.

[Brian]

There is also KEH.com. You could get a used D700 for $879. Yes, it's not the latest and greatest and you won't go to ISO 5 Million or whatever, but you could make it work with what you have. Plus things like cards and batteries and battery grip from your D300 work on the D700.

Think about it. KEH offers a 6 month warranty. I might "settle" and go this route myself.

https://www.keh.com/shop/nikon-d700-12-1-megapixel-digital-slr-camera-body-only.html

[Scollops71]

Thought you wanted a D3/D4 ? Should cheaper now the new D5 is out ...besides that is a huge chunk of camera. ..

[Brian]

I do. I really want the Nikon D3s. But that body is still over $2000. I just forked out $$$ for a new 24-70. I have Weddings coming up and my D300s is being stupid. So I might have to make a business decision and suck it up. The D3s isn't going anywhere.

[Scollops71]

Keep me posted on the final solution...may follow you.   If you need a backup got a nice d300.here in box

[Brian]

Arranged to borrow a D700 from a friend for my gigs. I will just follow my own advice and get what I want:

A Nikon D3s. 

It's the most logical step up from a D300s. Since the D3 & D300 were released at the same time, just like the D5 & D500, both sets of bodies are "cousins."

A used D3s in good shape will remind you of your D300 and you can use your current lenses with it. As soon as you jump up to 24MP or more, high quality lenses become almost mandatory. With a D3s, it's still 12.1MP and has a sensor that can go up to ISO 6400 or more, without a lot of pain. 

Hopefully when the D5 hits the shelves, the price of the D3s will lower. But I wouldn't hold your breath. The fully pro bodies hold their value. So I expect to pay around $2000 in the coming months. 

For your situation, be on the lookout for a D3s in good shape. The shutter is rated for around 300,000 clicks. So if you can find one that has less than say, 50,000-70,000 clicks, then it still has life left in it.