Focus calibration on D5200/D5300

[Gera]

I got those to bodies, and I do know that neither of them have AF fine tuning.

I got the 35mm 1.8 amd just got a 24-70mm 2.8 (which helped with the noise, thanks Brian).

I did notice however, that the cameras even when the focus point is on the person's face the camera focuses on the back.

Is there a way in camera to fix this or do I have to send it out for service?

[Brian]

Before you send it out, what focus mode are you set to? Refresh my memory. 

Try setting it to Single AF and have it set to you picking the AF point. There are a few settings that will allow you to pick the point, but if the camera finds something easier to lock on, it will override your choices. You need to tell your camera to not do that in the settings menu. 

[Brian]

Alright, I'm looking at the manual. Let's start with setting your camera to Aperture Priority, the "A" Mode. It's important to note that if you switch between the auto modes, the AF selection settings reset. So if you go from the Flower to the Face on the dial, (Macro to Portrait - Auto Mode) this will affect your focus settings. I'd honestly stick with Aperture Priority and learn it. Or just shoot in full Manual mode.

You will be looking at pages 33-38 in the D5200 Manual.

Starting on Page 33, you want to be in AF-C (Continuous Servo AF).

Page 36. Set your camera to Select Single Point AF.

Now try focusing and see what happens. Then choose AF-S. (Single Servo AF). Take a few test shots. Then flip it back to AF-C and choose Dynamic Area AF (21 Points) and then Dynamic Area AF (39 Points.) I know with a lot of Nikon bodies, the 21 Point AF Dynamic Mode is the strongest setting. So say Nikon's Engineers who told Moose Peterson. Whatever you do, make sure you are NOT on 3D tracking or Auto-area AF. Either of those settings will override what you choose. If it were me, I'd choose AF-C and Single Point AF. (The very first box in the list.)

OK, now go fiddle and report back.

[Gera]

Sorry I took for ever to respond @Brian. School is kicking my butt right now. 

Anyhow, this response is based on what I did (and do) before my original post. 

I shoot 90-95% of the time in manual. I have my camera set to back button focusing and almost always use AF-C. I normally had a 9 cluster focus points (center plus 8 surrounding ones). 

I normally leave the focus button pressed when I'm focusing which lead me to believe that the camera was focusing on the surrounding points. Then I changed it to AF-Single, but the thing kept on doing the same thing. I changed from 9 focus points to 1 focus point. I'd point it to the persons face, yet the wall would be on focus but not the freaking face even when I had the focus point on them! At first, the average Joe can't seem to notice the difference, but now that I got more into photography, I'm able to notice how the focus is wrong. 

 

I have not shot with my 50mm yet. I have the current 35mm I have is a replacement because I thought it was a lens problem. Then I got the Tamron and the problem is still there. 

 

On 3/9/2016 at 0:12 PM, Brian said:

if the camera finds something easier to lock on, it will override your choices. You need to tell your camera to not do that in the settings menu. 

How do I go about doing that?

 

Thanks.

[Brian]

Stop with the blasted back-button focusing!!! It is not the end all and be all technique that it's made out to be!!! 

It really only works if you shut off the shutter release button from focusing. Honestly, start using the shutter button to focus. Learn good technique. Yes, I know of all the blog posts and forums that claim it's the most Amazeballz thing you can do to nail focus and blah-blah-blah. The truth is, it works for some, but not all. 

AF-C is meant to continually focus when the shutter button is pressed half way. You really should be on AF-S (Single) when you BBF. If your subject moves, your focus will be off. If you are BBF and recomposing, you will have a few inches for your head to move, or else your subject will be out of focus. If you have the shutter button's ability to focus turned off and you only have a rear button allowing your camera to focus, then it will only focus when you press the rear button. Which for me will be a pain, literally. As I would likely poke myself in the eye.

In addition, you need to set your Focus menu setting to "Focus Priority" instead of the default "Release Priority." When you set the camera to Focus Priority, it will only take a photo that the camera thinks that it's in focus. Release means it snaps the photo regardless. 

So let's start using the shutter button going forward, just to see what happens. 

[Brian]

8 hours ago, Gera said:

How do I go about doing that?

Thanks.

RTFM.  I gave you page numbers in my comment above. But I really think it's the stupid BBF that's tripping you up. We also need to check to see if you are on Focus Priority. 

[Gera]

On 3/28/2016 at 7:47 AM, Brian said:

RTFM.

I'm sure you mean "read the fabulous manual" or "read the fantastic manual"... right? 

By the way, feel free to just tell me the name of the process. I'm usually good figuring out how to change settings as long as I know the "what is it" of it. 

Now, I've shooting some more and had the chance to experiment. I did come to a conclusion which will come in the end.

I set up the camera in Focus Priority like you asked. I disabled back button focusing and still was getting wrong focus. I tried AF-S and AF-C with a 9 point cluster and same. It wasn't consistent.

I shoot some pictures at the school I work at, and the lightning is not very convenient. I did not use a flash for safety purposes. I went back to bbf and some pictures did come out good. I was shooting with large apertures (3.2 - 4) and slow shutter speeds (80-100) trying to make the best out of the available light. 

Here is the kicker. I noticed that the focus tends to be wrong the most is when the head/face of the subject is smaller than the focus square (if that makes sense). I did large group shoots (22-29 student or even more some times), and I had to stand back a lot because I have a 24-70 on a cropped sensor (D5200), Therefore, the subjects' faces and heads are small in comparison to the focus squares. But when the subject is closer and/or bigger, I have little to no problems, even when BBF is on. I did took some pictures at my brother's marriage; and even when the face would cover the focus point entirely, the focus would be effed up. 

School pictures were using the Tamron 24-70.  The marriage shots were using the 35mm 1.8 Nikon.

Both situations have little/or poor light, because usually nearly anything that I shoot outdoors (or with a flash sometimes) doesn't have problem... 

Thoughts?

Should I send the damn thing to be looked at? Because I highly doubt the lenses are the problem. It is driving me nuts because my wife is experiencing the same with the 35mm and her D5300; which leads me to think that those two bodies' focusing systems are stupid and/or crap...  

[Gera]

I really feel like renting a higher end body just to see if they act the same. 

[Brian]

Yeah, read the fabulous manual. Let's go with that.

You just figured out your problem. In order for your camera to lock focus, there needs to be enough contrast swing for it to lock on. So if you are 20 feet away, trying to focus on a eyeball, you are going to blow focus. Period. Likewise, when you get closer and your subject's eye (or whatever you are trying to lock onto,) focus will be much easier for the camera's AF sensors to lock on. 

In addition, lenses have a minimum focusing distance, which means how close your subject can be to the lens, but there is a MAXIMUM DISTANCE that never gets talked about. 

Right now, one of my most used lenses is the Nikon 17-55 f/2.8 DX. It's the "24-70" for crop bodies. If my subject is between 5-10 feet away, my images are "tack sharp." Between 10-15 feet, they are "sharp." 16-20 feet it's "meh, fix it in PS sharp." 20 feet or more, "don't bother clicking the button, or reach for the 70-200."

So it sounds like you need to re-think your approach to certain situations. I wish you could simply point the camera at something, click the button, and it's in focus. LOL! It doesn't always work that way. 

For large groups, 3 to 4 rows deep, chances are, I'm going to be 15+ feet away, just to get everyone in the shot. So I will stop down to f/8, or possibly f/11. Then I will pick something on the front row, somewhere in the center. It could be a jacket or someone's face that has dark hair, something for the AF sensor to lock on. As you said, something that fills the AF point. A eyeball isn't going to do it.

To top things off, you are dealing with the angle of view change that comes with crop sensors. So a 24-70 lens performs more like a 36-105 equivalent. It's really not "wide" on a crop sensor. That's why a 17-55 f/2.8 is better on a crop body. 

Since you are shooting with a 24-70 lens, you might want to rent a D750 and give it a spin. Bonus: High ISO will be at at your disposal, which will help with crappy lighting. 

[Brian]

I'm also not a fan of Tamron lenses. I realize you are probably stuck with it, so I'd rent a D750 and a Nikon 24-70 f/2.8 combo to see the difference between the Tamron & Nikon. 

[Gera]

 

5 hours ago, Brian said:

In order for your camera to lock focus, there needs to be enough contrast swing for it to lock on.

Stupid question... is this because of the body's focusing system or user error?

5 hours ago, Brian said:

I'm also not a fan of Tamron lenses. I realize you are probably stuck with it, so I'd rent a D750 and a Nikon 24-70 f/2.8 combo to see the difference between the Tamron & Nikon. 

Kind of stuck but not entirely... LOL. I've seen some decent and good shots with this lens. I'm sure once I get more practice I'll get better. Also I need to stick in my head how lighting affects shots and stop expecting everything to be perfect regardless of the light (yes, I know it is stupid). 

 

The reason I don't want to rent anything of a semi to pro range is that I may like it a lot, then create a negative idea of what I have and try to get the gear I rented. I know it will happen like that; I just can't afford anything now. Maybe in a couple months the body and the lens may "go to heaven by accident" and that will give me something better. 

[Brian]

10 hours ago, Gera said:

Stupid question... is this because of the body's focusing system or user error?

15 hours ago, Brian said:

Body's Focusing system.

How Autofocus Systems work is based on a "Phased" type of system. Printers also use this technology. To see what I'm talking about, put your hands together and spread your fingers apart. If you see gaps in between the fingers, it's in "focus" if you rotate your right hand one notch, your fingers will be "out of focus" or out of "phase" as each of your fingers on one hand to fill a gap. 

What I really think is happening is a combination of things. You really need another photographer to critique your technique, since both you and your wife are having similar issues. A fresh set of eyes could give you an "Ah-ha!" moment without trying to gear your way out of this problem.  Also, you have a stupid Tamron lens, and you are too far away from your subject on a normal basis. You aren't giving your camera a chance. You need to get closer. Speaking of which, if you did rent a higher-end body, like a D750, you are going to have to get even closer to your subject than you normally would with a DX body. Why? Because of the Angle of View Change. Here is a quick and dirty example of what I'm talking about:

Comparison Shots between a D700 and D7100

Those sample shots where taken with the same lens, the only difference is the body. FX takes getting used to. It's not something that you can casually pickup after shooting DX. You really can see the "Magnifying Affect" from the "Crop Factor" when it comes to DX. The angle of view is different, which changes the position on where you stand, which then affects your Depth of Field. You have to get closer to your subject with FX bodies. It's amazing on just how much you have to stop down with FX. The flexibility and wiggle-room that DX offers, isn't an option on FX...it's much less forgiving. When I'm at f/2.8 on DX, I'm more than likely around f/4 on FX. Maybe f/3.2.

I'm a OEM snob. I don't think I will ever own a 3rd party lens. If I were, it would probably be along the lines of the Sigma ART series. I would never own a Tamron lens. Often you have to go through 4-5 copies to get a good one, and even then you could have issues. I can't tell you how many times I've known photographers who just question shot after shot after shot, on why things are sometimes in focus, but their majority of shots are "almost" in focus. They just seem off on a continuous basis. Tamron lenses are just junk, and I don't care how much they have improved. LOL!! You aren't going to change my opinion. Photography, as with most things...you get what you pay for. So I'm seriously recommending you "Get a Taste of Heaven." This way you will stop driving yourself nuts and start saving for better equipment.

If you were to get a better body today and wanted to stick with DX, I'd just get a Nikon D500 when it comes out later this month. For the "average" person who wants to switch to FX, the D750 is a good place to start. As for the D810...fantastic camera, but 36MP is tough to deal with. It's so easy to blow the shot, because the resolution is so high. Your technique needs to be solid. Since you are having such trouble with focus, the D810 is not where you want to be. Plus, the $3200 price-tag isn't always an option for people, including myself. That's why my next camera body will be a used D3s in good shape, possibly a D4s if I keep saving.