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External MAC issues


NancyA

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I have a MacBook Pro running Catalina 10.15.7 processor 2.9 GHz six core intel core i9. Memory 32 GB. Graphics Radion pro Vega  20 4 GB Intel UHD graphics 630 1536 MB.

I use both PC and MAC externals because I switched from a PC and had several PC externals. Also we still have a PC and I use them interchangeable. I use paragon on the Mac and it’s worked really well for probably five years. It quit reading “some” of the externals. I contacted paragon and they said it was the update that Catalina did that caused the issues and it wouldn’t be fixed until Catalina did an update which they eventually did and it did fix that Issue.

Then I started having issues with my USB-C ports which I have 4 of.  Right now most externals are being recognized except for a new Mac formatted 10 TB WD external that is a desktop vs.  I have an old 2 TB and an old 4 TB both PC formatted of the same model WD externals. I was working on files tonight on all three of them with only one plugged in at a time. The two older PC ones worked flawlessly. The new 10 TB would not mount on the first three USB-C slots I tried but finally worked on the fourth which was not the port that I had the other two plugged in that worked.  I also tried using same cable that worked with the older ones. This is not a new issue!  Side note I am able to charge computer on any port with no problem so I assume they are all good???
 

I also have a fairly new portable WD that only the PC will recognize in this 7 month nightmare!

 I followed the post to Lynne earlier today and I’m going to get the 12TB desktop you recommended to her if you say it is compatible with my system. I have tried multiple cables and ports. I’m tired of not only the game I have to play to get them mounted but the fear of loosing files even though I try to keep everything in 3 places but at the rate my externals are giving me fits I’m loosing the backup battle. And it isn’t MAC or PC specially but happens with both formats.

Do you have any suggestions as to what is happening?  My main question is do you think that thunderbolt 3 - G drive will fix my mounting issues?  Sometimes they are seen by paragon but won’t mount. Other times paragon doesn’t even see it. Paragon sees both the mac’s and pc’s when they are all working properly. I’m considering 2. One for an exact copy of the other and put these portables in a drawer for the 3rd backup but before I put out that kind of $$ would like your thoughts. The other question then to myself is how long will 12 TB last me but I figure I have maybe 8 TB from 2009-present. My volume is going to greatly decrease after this year and my longevity is on the downward side!!

Sorry to be so long but trying to give you all the info!!

Thanks!!

Nancy Abby 

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I’m thinking you have an issue with the Controller Chip on your Laptop’s Motherboard that controls the Thunderbolt Ports or USB Ports. Which isn’t good, since that means new Motherboard which ain’t cheap. 

All those externals, going back and forth, sigh. Even though Paragon “works,” it’s not bulletproof as you have found out. Honestly working off as many externals as you do, going back and forth is a recipe for disaster. I have a friend like you, but she doesn’t have a Mac. I think she is up to 20 or more externals and I’m just waiting for something bad to happen. 

Buying a larger external and consolidating everything to one drive is one way to do things, but Apple really wants you to pick a format; Mac OR Windows, pick one. No going back and forth, and if you really want to do that, I’d recommend something else entirely:

A NAS running the SMB File System, as it's the most "Universal" between the worlds (you can even have access to the NAS from your iPads and Phones and Tablets, all with SMB!) The NFS File System is also a good choice as well, but it's a little more intense to work with, meaning the Nerds and Geeks (and Enterprise/Commercial Users) that love tweaking things, they will choose NFS.

NAS stands for Network Attached Storage and uses a Ethernet Port to connect to your Network. Then all you do is create Network Shares on your Windows Computer and Mac. The beauty with NAS units is they almost always have redundancy built into them with multiple drives in a RAID Configuration. So if one HD fails, other HD will pick up the slack and keep going, which gives you access to your data until you replace the failed HD. Some NAS units will automatically backup to the cloud for you, so that your data is in two different places!

Sounds great, right? It is…except for the cost and noise. Having 2-3 spinning HDs in a plastic box is kinda noisy, but like I said, the NAS doesn’t need to be next to a computer, it just has to be plugged into your Router/Switch, then all your other devices will have access. 

Cost is an issue as well, as we do not want the “$79 Special” hard drives, no…we want HDs that are meant for NAS units and are designed for this sort of thing and they cost more. Oh, they all need to be identical and the same capacity. Plus, I order to have redundancy, some storage capacity is lost, so you’ll need bigger drives than you think you’ll need. (Three 18TB HD will give you 36TB Storage Capacity before formatting. So that's 54TBs of drive with around 34TB to play with in a RAID5 Configuration. See what I mean?)

If you think this is something that interests you, I can continue and we can start talking budget. If not, you might want to get that 18TB drive and dump everything on it, providing that it will mount on both your computers, but this really concerns me; going between the two worlds on a normal almost always ends in disaster at some point. Plugging in and removing USB Devices also is a bit sketchy as most folks never “Eject” properly on their Windows computers. Just pulling a USB device out of a Windows Computer, well Macs too, can cause your data to become corrupted or kill USB interfaces, which doesn’t allow you to get to your data. 

So how much capacity do you need? What will be your needs going forward? 

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Clear up one question first. Let’s assume I go to one system the Mac only. Is this system what you recommend or is this recommendation based on the switching back-and-forth?   If I can get all of the PC externals onto Mac externals I’m OK with that. I only use the PC computer when my Mac won’t read the externals with issues. And I would really like to get rid of all these portable externals laying around. My original theory was that if smaller failed I didn’t lose as much as going to large but in today’s age going bigger seems to be the better option. 
 

Can Apple run something on my computer to determine if what you think is happening is what is happening or does it just have to die?

thank you so much for all the time you put in on answering these questions for us.   I do not take it lightly or for granted!
Nancy Abby 

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5 hours ago, NancyA said:

Clear up one question first. Let’s assume I go to one system the Mac only. Is this system what you recommend or is this recommendation based on the switching back-and-forth?

Both. It's what I recommend and I'm quite concerned for you switching back and forth; that almost always ends with a  huge problem. Pick a format, Mac OR Windows. I also have 30+ years of experience with this stuff, and I tend to err on the side of caution/have a conservative viewpoint. I do not mess around when it comes to my Hard Drives.

Also, if any of your Hard Drives are partitioned with exFAT for a file system, that's also bad. We need your external HDs to be Mac Partitioned and Mac Formatted. Since Macs are more popular now, and the manufactures do not want to carry two different sets of drives, and they are "cheating" with using exFAT, which is compatible with both Mac and Windows. That said, exFAT was originally created by Microsoft and was more of a "Pet Project" than anything. It isn't Bullet-proof at all and I would personally not trust exFAT Partition to store my data on. It's meant for Geeks and Nerds, who have complete 100% backups stored off-site, not the average consumer who has crap all over the place. So we will need to take a look at your current externals and how they are setup.

5 hours ago, NancyA said:

My original theory was that if smaller failed I didn’t lose as much as going to large but in today’s age going bigger seems to be the better option. 

Yeah, that's old-school thinking. "Don't want to have all of your eggs in one basket!!! No-Siree-Bob!!" "Don't use large cards for your camera!! Don't want to loose images!!!" Blah-Blah-Blah. The issue is, just because you might have extra capacity doesn't mean you need to fill it up AND it doesn't matter if you have a bunch of small drives or one large one; if you do not have duplicates of all those drives and one fails, you have lost data...period. It's gonna suck either way. Just think, you could have a small HD that has clients images on it. Something important like a Wedding. It doesn't matter if its a 2TB Drive or a 18TB, if it dies...it dies. Always remember, the most critical time for an external HD is how you eject it and when you hook it up to your computer to access it / mount it. I don't care if it's a 1TB EHD or a 18TB one,  anything Man-Made can fail. Which leads me to my next answer.

5 hours ago, NancyA said:

Can Apple run something on my computer to determine if what you think is happening is what is happening or does it just have to die?

Not really. They wouldn't really help you with 3rd party items anyway. Apple likes to blame everyone else for their problems. ESPECIALLY if you have 3rd party stuff. For example, let's say you upgraded the RAM in a Mac yourself. Mouse Batteries died? As far as Apple is concerned, that 3rd Party RAM caused the issue! Stuff like that. Basically, if you diagnose or "test" a EHD, you would need special software to do just that, and it's not going to be 100% accurate. If it can't find the external drive, there is nothing to diagnose. Understand? 

There is diagnostic software that will read the S.M.A.R.T. Status on the HD itself, and sometimes it will let you know that the HD is failing. Trying to nail down a USB interface problem? Good Luck...

You might want to try and get a USB Powered Hub, such as this one. It doesn't have a lot of ports, but it does have a USB 2.0 Port AND a USB 3.0 Port. I have had USB 2.0 devices not play well with USB 3.0 Ports. It's rare, but it can happen. You could also try this Powered Hub as well but that doesn't have a USB 2.0 Port. I'm thinking you might have some sort of power issue or the USB interface isn't playing nice. It could also be a Partition / Filesystem / Formatting problem, but I'm really reaching here. The MacOS is designed for you to switch from Windows to a Mac. It's the going back-and-forth is where you run into issues. Also, some things just don't work well other than "Just because..." with no real reason. Why doesn't this always work? "Just because..." Especially when all of this shit is made in China, with the cheapest components available. Remember that. ;) 

So how much capacity do you have across ALL your HDs. How much do you need?

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I did take computer to apple store.  I had called to double check my warrant was out (May 2022!) and she could get appt. today.  You are dead on.  No diagnosis possible.  So If it is that, I'll just have to let the ports die then do something with that issues.

EXTERNALS:  I'm going strictly MAC as soon as you give me the right ones.  I'll use Paragon to get all my PC externals moved to the MAC external. and from then on if I need to get something off the PC ones I have a PC computer to handle that. Getting them onto one drive isn't as complicated as it sounds since everything is backed up on these 3 desktops and some of it is duplicated on all 3--time yes but doable.  If I get it on a 12 or 18 GB then that will reduce everything to using only one external :).  I can definitely handle that!  

 

9 hours ago, Brian said:

A NAS running the SMB File System, as it's the most "Universal" between the worlds (you can even have access to the NAS from your iPads and Phones and Tablets, all with SMB!) The NFS File System is also a good choice as well, but it's a little more intense to work with, meaning the Nerds and Geeks (and Enterprise/Commercial Users) that love tweaking things, they will choose NFS.

NAS stands for Network Attached Storage and uses a Ethernet Port to connect to your Network. Then all you do is create Network Shares on your Windows Computer and Mac. The beauty with NAS units is they almost always have redundancy built into them with multiple drives in a RAID Configuration. So if one HD fails, other HD will pick up the slack and keep going, which gives you access to your data until you replace the failed HD. Some NAS units will automatically backup to the cloud for you, so that your data is in two different places!

This is all over my head!  If I go strictly MAC is this necessary?  My MAC  does use USB-C (thunderbolt 3 according to google.  it's a 2018). ports.  I'm just not understanding why this would be better in my situation than EHD G Drive Pro you recommended for Lynne.  I would need to get two of them but I understand the system!  I'm game for something new if it is necessary.  Just not understanding.

Thanks! 

Nancy

 

 

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3 hours ago, NancyA said:

If I go strictly MAC is this necessary?

No. Switching to a NAS was for if you were planing on staying in between the two worlds; often I get requests from people to do just that, wanting their files to go between a Windows Computer and a Mac. Since you are planning on switching over to the Mac format, it's a little easier. And waaaaaaaay cheaper. :)

So here is the plan:

  1. Get that 12TB or 18TB Thunderbolt G-Drive. Hook it up to your Mac and see if we can access it and how it's configured. (I can help with this) I'm 98% sure we don't have to do anything.
  2. Create a folder structure on that new G-Drive that makes sense to you. The reason is when you go dumping all of your images from multiple drives, we need a place for them to go to. No sense in dumping images and having crap all over the place. Even if you have to take a piece of paper and figure out a method that works with your brain.
  3. Consolidate-Consolidate-Consolidate! You can create a "Transfer" Folder on the G-Drive and within that folder give it a name that describes where the data came from. Like WD 4TB EXT1, Seagate 2TB Ext3, etc. Even if you have to label each of the externals to keep everything straight. Then COPY AND PASTE the data from the external into one of the folders in the "Transfer" Folder. Rinse and repeat until you get all the drives' data on the one big drive.
  4. The External HDs that work with your Mac & Windows Computer, use one of them to attach to your Windows Computer. We will need to re-partition and reformat that drive. (Takes 5 min, but it will NUKE everything on that drive.) After we get that drive to the NTFS file system, I want you to copy the external Hard Drives that only work with your Windows computer over to that HD. To keep things simple I'd just do one at a time. Or if you have the capacity and are feeling lucky, we could do 2-3 drives over to that drive.
  5. Hook that Windows HD (be sure to Eject it first) that you just copied items over to and now try accessing it on your Mac. IF it mounts and is readable by the macOS, then COPY & PASTE the contents of that drive over to the G-Drive.
  6. After we get all of your data that's spanned across all of your HDs copied over, then start CULLING. I promise you...75 Raw images taken of your lunch from 7 years ago, you do not need. 

See what I'm doing? I don't care about your externals specifically, I care about the data on those drives. We need to migrate that data and I don't care what drive does it, I just want that data copied over.

The reason that I say to Copy & Paste instead of Cut & Paste, is that when you Cut, you MOVE the files, which deletes them as they go. If something were to happen during the data transfer, you can always hit cancel and try again if you are using the Copy & Paste Method. If you are Cutting & Pasting, your files may go "Poof" during the transfer, especially if you are dealing with corrupted data, and that results in lost files. Which is bad. 

So first things first. Buy that G-Drive. Let me know in this thread when it arrives.

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3 hours ago, NancyA said:

 I'll use Paragon to get all my PC externals moved to the MAC external. 

Don't bother. Let's keep things simple. I do not want a software translation package getting in the way of things. I don't trust Paragon completely, and if it takes moving your files via your Windows computer, and then attaching that HD to your Mac, so-be-it.

3 hours ago, NancyA said:

If I get it on a 12 or 18 GB then that will reduce everything to using only one external :).  I can definitely handle that!  

Well, there is a bit more to it than just having one external, but we will jump off that bridge when we get to it. :)

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Quick question.  I'm ordering the G-drive, trying to decide size.

43 minutes ago, Brian said:

Well, there is a bit more to it than just having one external, but we will jump off that bridge when we get to it. :)

I am planning on getting 2--one for using and one for backup. I'll get the backup after I get everything transferred onto the one "user external". Were you thinking I meant I would only have one external period or did you mean I shouldn't put everything on that one and use it extensively for my working external?  If I'm going to have one main usable I might need the 18TB but if I need more than one working then I would go with the 12 TB.

I"m thinking your beer fund is going to need a contribution from me!

Nancy

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It really depends on your budget and what’s your storage needs are. The way I do things I’d I have one main external drive, 12TB and a 4TB drive that is my Time Machine Drive. The TM drive just backs up the internal Mac HD, it never touches the External 12TB. Then once a month I clone the external drive to another 12TB drive and that drive is kept off site. 

Most of my photos these days are vacation photos, I really don’t shoot Weddings that much these days, so a monthly dump works for me. You might want to do yours weekly or every two weeks. It all depends on your level of Paranoia, umm…I mean Comfort Level. The import thing is to get to a point of having a HD loss is more of an annoyance rather than a major catastrophe.  That starts with good file management and a offsite backup. Here is more info of the 3-2-1 Backup Strategy:

3-2-1 Backup Strategy. 

 

3 - Three copies of your important data files. 

 

2 - Two different storage mediums. 

 

1 - One of these mediums are kept at a different location...off-site. 

 

Fire, floods, theft, etc. are always a possibility. Live in the Desert and aren’t worried about a flood? A busted water pipe in a ceiling above your computer can cause all sorts of damage by creating a “flood.”

I also have a friend who suffered two catastrophic data losses, actually three. One was due to digital rot, the CDs that had ALL of her 1st born photographs just rotted over time. You wouldn’t know it by looking at the disk, but after sitting in a box after 10+ years, the CD couldn’t be read by any DVD drive. The 1st and 0’s that make up data just disappeared over time. 

The second was a HD failure, where the HD heads came into contact with the spinning aluminum platters that your data resides on. Basically at 5400 RPM, when the heads came into contact, it scored/shredded the platters. There was nothing but a lot of aluminum dust when the Data Recovery company opened the drive to see the extent of damage. No data recovery was possible. It was all gone, permanently. Kid #1 and Kid #2’s photos were lost. 

Third catastrophic failure, her house was broken into. Her laptop and external HD were stolen. Kid #1, #2 AND #3 photos, from birth to then-present were lost. 

She is a bit more paranoid now and has backups of backups in multiple locations. 

Oh, which also leads me to this...

“Print what you want to preserve!!” - Missy MWAC. 

Technology changes. In 74 years, do you think that USB will still be around? Will it even exist or be supported? “Grandpa Joe” who is your young son now, may not have any images available to future generations. 

Remember MySpace? LOL! FB, IG, Flickr, any Cloud Service is not guaranteed forever. Look at Kodak. 😉

So print your photos every now and then. It’s a different “Medium,” even if they aren’t popular, it’s another form of backup.

——————

Now some people may suggest a Gun Safe as a place to store HDs…

Keep in mind, Safes usually aren’t fire-proof, just fire-resistant. It’s rated at so many hours at a maximum temperature. So if your fire exceeds that rating, chances are you will have burned documents and gooey lenses / other computer hardware after the fire is put out. So be sure to read the fine-print for your particular safe. Hence, an off-site location for your data.

So while a gun safe might be one option in terms of Theft, I wouldn’t discount Fire & Water Damage.  YMMV. 

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I got the HD, plugged in and recognized but since I have paragon on here I never know what is using what.  I am including a screen shot that hopefully will tell you how it is configured.

I'm currently in the process of cleaning out every folder and culling heavily whatever drive the data exist on now going backwards so when I can't handle doing anymore at least the most current years will be finished.  I had a decent system of organizing but changing it slightly.  Hopefully this will make moving to the new G drive easy.

ISSUES I SEE:

On 9/6/2022 at 8:52 PM, Brian said:

The External HDs that work with your Mac & Windows Computer, use one of them to attach to your Windows Computer. We will need to re-partition and reformat that drive. (Takes 5 min, but it will NUKE everything on that drive.) After we get that drive to the NTFS file system, I want you to copy the external Hard Drives that only work with your Windows computer over to that HD. To keep things simple I'd just do one at a time. Or if you have the capacity and are feeling lucky, we could do 2-3 drives over to that drive.

I have NO external that will work on both systems without the use of paragon.  I never put my MAC externals on the PC so no paragon on the PC.  And I have always used paragon on the MAC to read the PC externals.  Not only was I a PC user for more years than I've been a MAC, when I switched to MAC  I kept buying PC so useable on both.  I wasn't convinced I would stay a MAC user,  so most of my externals are PC that I've read with paragon on the MAC.  I'm culling/reorganizing the PC externals on the PC.  Many of my externals overlap tremendously with data (part of my paranoid backup system!).  I am trying to get all my PC duplicate externals down to a clean however many it takes externals that contains one CULLED/ORGANIZED copy of all my work.  I figure the MAC externals will not be an issue moving.

 From here tell me what to do!  I'll continue to cull/organize the PC's on the PC as it is just easier (desktop bigger screen) and it is a huge job :(.  Since you do not want me to use paragon to put these on the new G-drive, I need direction on what to use as the "Mac & windows external" l to get the PC"S onto the MAC 

Again, thank you!! 

Screen Shot 2022-09-09 at 2.21.57 PM.png

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We don't have to do anything. The G-Drive is perfectly setup for use on your Mac.

"Format: Mac OS Extended (Journaled)" is what you want. Each EHD, going forward, will be set to Mac OS Extended (Journaled.)

4 hours ago, NancyA said:

And I have always used paragon on the MAC to read the PC externals.

YOU DO NOT NEED PARAGON TO READ ANY WINDOWS DRIVE. THE MACOS WILL READ A WINDOWS DRIVE WITHOUT ISSUE, IT JUST WILL NOT WRITE TO IT!

Paragon is required if you are reading / writing data for use on BOTH a Mac and a Windows Machine. Apple wants you to switch to a Mac from Windows, so they make it REALLY EASY TO. I feel you have done some over-thinking and that is causing issues (your "Paranoia" will be your un-doing. While it's fine to be Paranoid, not having things setup correctly and doing what you have been doing will eventually cause you to lose data!)

Before we continue, I want you to do what you did above and let me know what FORMAT is for each of your externals. You don't have to do screen shots, just type the HD Name and what it is. We may have to copy a HD large enough to your new G-Drive 1st, eject it and then hook it up to the Windows Computer. At that point we will nuke the drive. Then start migrating your Windows files to it. After which, THAT drive will be hooked up to the Mac, without Paragon getting in the way. (I swear, that program works well most of the time, but it isn't bullet-proof.) 

Before we do anything I want to see how each of your drives is setup. If one doesn't read on the Mac, that's fine, move onto the next. Then I want you to create a list of which drives will mount on the Mac and which ones will only work with a Windows Computer. We need to take inventory before we attempt anything. Also, have sticky notes handy and put one on each drive so you can keep them straight. Give the EHD a name, and then write "Mac" "Win" or "Both."

Then get back to me.

PS: Get rid of Paragon! I want that program gone from your Mac!

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I'm in process of doing as stated above but this morning I had a shoot with 97 images.  First time to actually use the G drive and it failed miserably!  First try was a drag drop from SDXC card memory card.  It showed copying and then just stopped and computer shut down/restarted.  After restart NOTHING showed in the new folder.  I attempted again with copy/paste.  At about 07534 I could tell it was going to reboot as it did.  This time some of them were there and all the rest were grayed out but #'s were all there.  3rd attempt same procedure but I got a few more on.  I think I tried 4-5 times and just gave up.  I have a screen shot that shows how it looked when it rebooted.  I can tell it is going to not finish as the number on bar stops changing & the sound of the G drive comes to a halt.  I put all of the files over to one of my portable externals seamlessly so it isn't the card or the files but something with the G drive.  As you might have figured out Lynne and I are friends and live close together.  Her G drive seems to be doing similar antics but evidently she did get some transferred where as this one batch is all I've tried but it is a critically process obviously.  

407510488_ScreenShot2022-09-10at12_16_19PM.thumb.png.c47068765f37e9629105c8df9f2e5ad2.png

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I had another thought.  I had the cord plugged into one of the "lightening" indicated socket.  I changed it to the one not marked with the lightening bolt which I only assumed is a straight "USB-C" and they all copied over with no issues.  I can guess at what that means but will wait & see what I need to do next. 

Thanks!

Nancy

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Ok, sorry to bother you but confused.  Is it normal for it not to work on a 2018 MAC and I just live with it.  I'm mentally struggling with paying for a lighting external and only able to use as a "C".  I was hoping you would have a fix to get it to work with the lighting ports.

 

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3 minutes ago, Brian said:

Oh! I know what you did! You went from Thunderbolt on the computer to USB C on the drive. Yeah, don’t do that. 😄

That’s the only way it will work. So what do I do? Sorry my terminology is a disaster!

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Ok, the Thunderbolt Ports on the G-Drive, there are two of them. They have a picture of a Lightning Bolt above them and are in the rectangular circle. There is a single USB-C port to the left. (I know…DUH!) 

This laptop. Is it your 2018 Mac Book or is it something else? What make/model/year? This is the one you have issues with? Or is it working? In reality, we want to use the TB port on the drive, (I use the left TB3 port and will use the Right TB3 Port to hook up to another TB3 drive,) and use a TB3 port on the computer for the fastest transfer speeds. 

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I found something interesting!! The Ports on the left of the 2016 MacBooks are different than the ones on the right. It seems that you want the laptop to be plugged in and use the TB Ports on the left with your G-Drive. The article just mentions a 13” MacBook, but I have a sneaky suspicion your Mac Book might fall under similar circumstances, especially if the power output is differs on the right side, 7.5W vs the Left Side, 15W. 
 

https://gadgets360.com/laptops/news/apple-says-not-all-thunderbolt-3-ports-on-the-13-inch-macbook-pro-2016-are-equally-fast-1586985

Let’s try hooking the G-Drive up to one of the TB3 Ports on the left side of that laptop and use the TB3 port on the G-Drive. 

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Mac book pro 2018. Yes it is the one I have had troubles with but right now everything I plug into it has been working except the new G drive. I tried the g drive thunderbolt three on different ports

On 9/5/2022 at 11:22 PM, NancyA said:

have a MacBook Pro running Catalina 10.15.7 processor 2.9 GHz six core intel core i9. Memory 32 GB. Graphics Radion pro Vega  20 4 GB Intel UHD graphics 630 1536 MB.

 

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